No One Wants to Work... for You — Part 1

0:00 Every owner says the same thing right now. Nobody wants to work anymore. Our 0:06 guest today has spent a career in HR and employment law. And she's going to 0:10 gently take that sentence apart because the data says the problem usually isn't 0:15 the applicants. It's a burnedout manager doing the hiring, an offer nobody can 0:21 find, and a process that makes good people walk away before they ever start. 0:26 Nobody wants to work for you is a different sentence than nobody wants to 0:31 work. In this episode, we figure out which one is actually true. 0:37 Welcome to From Burnt Out to Bought Out, the podcast for business owners who are 0:41 tired of being the hardest working, lowest paid employee in their own 0:44 company. I'm Jon, joined as always by Ryan, and together we've spent years 0:48 inside owner businesses helping founders go from running on fumes to running a 0:53 business that actually runs without them. Every episode, we break down the 0:56 real problems nobody talks about. The burnout, the bottlenecks, the blind 1:00 spots, and show you what it looks like to build a business that's profitable, 1:04 sellable, and doesn't need you in the building every day to survive. Whether 1:08 you're grinding through a plateau, thinking about an exit, or just trying 1:11 to take a vacation without your phone blowing up, you're in the right place. 1:15 Let's get into it. Awesome. Ryan, Cindy, hello. Welcome, 1:22 Cindy. Hello, Jon. 1:24 >> Hello. Hello, hello, hello. Excellent, Cindy. Very pleased to have you uh grace 1:30 our podcast, our humble little podcast. 1:34 >> I'm excited to be here. 1:36 >> Excellent. And ju just a quick intro, Cindy Cannaman Warren is the founder and 1:41 principal consultant at CKW Advantage where she provides human resources, 1:46 labor relations, and compliance consulting services to school districts, 1:49 m municipalities, local governments, nonprofit organization, and 1:52 missiondriven employers. So yeah, we're delighted to have your expertise. It's 1:57 going to make us seem really smart here this episode. 2:01 >> I'll do my best. 2:03 >> Awesome. Makes change right. 2:06 >> Yeah. 2:08 >> Excellent. Good stuff. Yeah. I mean, we're excited. I think nobody wants to 2:12 wear I don't want to work. That's why we're doing the podcast, right? Isn't it 2:14 fame and glory that we're after? So something like that. 2:19 >> Something. 2:20 >> Yeah, something like that. So except we're going to get into in a second. 2:23 Just a heads up for listeners as well is that um Ryan's going to put on the 2:27 owner's hat multiple times throughout this episode, right? Because I think 2:30 Cindy's got so much expertise and we're hopefully not going to inundate you with 2:35 questions too much, but um yeah, it's putting on that owner's hat gives a 2:40 little bit of context to how people um might handle specific situations. And so 2:45 we got a bunch of things to kind of, if you don't mind, throw you. This is an 2:48 episode that's been brewing for a long time. We thought of it a long time ago. 2:51 And Cindy, I know we reached out to you, so thank thanks for finally uh agreeing. 2:56 We we had to twist your arm. 3:00 >> Yeah. Yeah. It's Ryan had to do more twisting than you. 3:05 >> You know, that's that's part for the course. 3:08 >> Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. So, first of all, why don't you intro introduce yourself 3:11 and then let let's start by taking apart that sentence. Nobody wants to work 3:15 anymore. 3:17 >> Okay. Uh yeah. ly like you said I I'm been working in human resources for over 3:22 25 years um from various aspects grew up in a house where my dad owned his own 3:26 company has gone through multiple careers himself so you know I've seen 3:30 the HR issues from an employee employer uh collective bargaining you name it 3:36 I've seen it from just about every perspective we can see it from so I'm 3:39 looking forward to chatting with you guys about some of the some of the 3:42 topics and yeah it is you it's funny nobody wants to work for me for us 3:47 anymore and you'll hear employees tell you no one wants to hire anyone anymore. 3:51 So, it's going to be a fun discussion. 3:54 >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's challenges on both sides. So, yeah, 4:00 let's uh unpack part of it. Brian, I think, you know, as the owner, what what 4:04 are some of the major concerns that, you know, we've got hiring these days? 4:10 Well, I think uh there's a there's a lot of concerns that there's nobody out 4:15 there that's worth anything, right? They don't want to work as hard as we used 4:19 to. They're not as smart as we used to be. Uh you know, we just we can't just 4:23 throw them in there and they can figure it out. You know, there's the candidate 4:27 pool has gotten worse and worse, especially since co, right? So, you hear 4:31 the same things over and over again um from every industry across the board. 4:37 Sydney, what are some of the things that you you've been hearing? 4:40 >> So, same I I mean there's the ongoing generational frustration, right? That 4:45 you have three or four or five generations at play. All of them have 4:49 their own unique personalities and their own work ethics and what they think um 4:54 and how they perceive working hard. Um but you also have on top of that the 5:00 wide range of technology skills, comfort with technology. uh you throw AI in 5:05 there and that's just blown everything up, right? So, it's an interesting 5:09 combination because the perception out there is, you know, that the older 5:13 generation works harder, but one might say the younger generation's working 5:18 smarter. So, maybe they are able to get that job done faster or know the tools 5:23 to use so that they're not working as hard like they like to say, work harder, 5:27 not work smarter, not harder. But then you've got the automation integr 5:32 integration into the whole hiring process which has just become so 5:35 frustrating for everybody. It's one of those cases I think where technology is 5:39 not helping us and I think that's leading to more disconnect as well is 5:43 you know you have really strong candidates applying for jobs that are 5:46 screened out before anybody ever sees them or if you're the hiring manager you 5:51 log on to your LinkedIn or into your Indeed or pick your job search service 5:56 and you've been inundated with 5,000 applications for an administrative 6:01 assistant position. It's just this conundrum we're all struggling with is 6:05 we've lost the human element in some ways and the ability to speak to each 6:09 other. And I don't know if you guys experienced this probably as parents too 6:14 is, you know, my younger sister is 17 years younger than me. She's all about 6:18 text. I'm all about phones. And they're somewhere in between there. You know, 6:22 you got the next generation my nephews who aren't doing either anymore, right? 6:26 they don't sit across the from each other or if you're, for lack of a better 6:30 word, a COVID baby who started school going through a computer, you know, 6:35 you've lost all those social skills. So, you add that on top of the inability to 6:39 just sit one-on-one anymore and it just all plays in. And then lastly, I'd say 6:44 that the biggest perception around what it means to work remote and how do you 6:48 measure productivity, you know, from the people that, you know, if you're not in 6:52 the office, you're not working or if you're on teams and your dot isn't the 6:56 right color, you know, those kind of frustrations instead of focusing on what 7:00 works actually getting done. So, yeah, it's I'd say the whole the easiest way 7:04 to sum it up is frustrating for everyone, 7:07 >> right? Yeah, I think it's challenging and certainly going through the hiring 7:10 process, it's difficult to really understand the quality of candidates and 7:15 that frustration exists on the candidate side of people not being able to to be 7:19 seen, right? So, what does that look like? How do we how do how do we solve 7:22 it? What does it look like from a day-to-day uh perspective like when 7:26 you're applying and also what you see coming in? Um, how do how do we solve 7:30 it? What are your recommendations to companies that are going through these 7:33 challenges? Um, I think there's a couple different 7:36 ways to do it. I mean, the last thing I've been to that was most imper portion 7:41 was a job fair, right? Um, and obviously in bigger areas like where I am in 7:46 Orlando, you have a larger population to pull from. It does at least get you that 7:50 one- on-one meeting with someone so that you actually get to meet the person. 7:54 They're more than a piece of paper. They haven't been sused out by AI. Um, you 7:59 get a chance to talk to them beyond the resume or what's on the paper. So, at 8:03 least there's a little bit of that human touch, but again, if you're a small 8:07 organization with 10 people or don't even have an HR department, how do you 8:12 access th that kind of environment, right? So, it's great down here. Or if 8:16 you're up in New England, you know, up in particularly New Hampshire, Maine, 8:20 Vermont, you know, you're not going to have those same clusters, the same 8:23 number of employers to pull off that kind of event either. So, it's just it 8:28 comes down to networking. Sometimes it's building employee referral systems. I 8:32 think you know kind of building those incentives within the organization that 8:37 you know like just like an employees know who the worst employees are. 8:41 They're the ones that are most vested in making sure you get good candidates in. 8:45 So maybe you start using that as a tool more often is hey you know if you 8:48 recommend somebody and they are successful and hit certain targets not 8:53 just a referral bonus but you know levels on that referral bonus based on 8:56 their actual ability to come into the company and um like your family episode 9:01 probably don't want to encourage them to nominate family members for all sorts of 9:05 other reasons. But you know it's finding those other resources um beyond just 9:11 posting an ad. Um, of course you have to be sensitive to the, you know, equal 9:15 opportunity employment issues and making sure you're complying with the law, but 9:19 at the same time, you've got to find other avenues to at least get them to 9:23 your site or find ways to pull in. And 9:27 >> at the end of the day, word of mouth is always going to be your best marketing 9:30 tool for employment. If your employees are happy, people are going to want to 9:34 come work with you. 9:36 >> Yeah, I think that's some gold right there. Like I think our most successful 9:40 across multiple organizations, our most successful uh hires do do come from that 9:45 that sort of word of mouth where you've because a lot of the businesses we work 9:49 with are smaller. They're not they're not hosting a job fair, right? They're 9:52 not they're not taking the time or don't have the time to dedicate to something 9:56 so so large as an activity like that. But yeah, I think Ryan, we've seen that 10:01 across the board that the recommendations because you also get 10:04 with the referrals, you get more honesty and truth with assessment of a person's 10:08 capabilities. And you're right, the complex hiring world is really 10:12 challenging because we see so many AI resumes now. And it's obvious, right? 10:17 Emphasis lines and and marks and the way things are described perfectly. So, do 10:22 you discount somebody because of that or do you count them in because they're, 10:26 you know, they're using the technology that's available, right? Which actually 10:30 we all need to be using that technology. So, I think, yeah, there's 10:34 >> funny. I mean, 20 years ago, I would have been screening an application based 10:38 on did they actually remember to change the employer name 10:42 >> in their cover letter, right? I mean, how many times did you get I I want this 10:46 position at this company, but they didn't even bother to put the right 10:48 employer in there. And now it's, hey, here's my resume. Here's the ad. Build 10:53 me a perfect application. And I I laughed. I I try it myself. And I was 10:58 shocked to find out I was qualified to be a project engineer. 11:01 So, luckily, I actually read what they what AI put together. And that's the 11:05 other piece, you know, what are the tests for filtering out bad AI and 11:10 actual helpful AI because in some ways it's still a great tool, right? To help 11:15 me find the right buzzwords to get past those AI screens, but also setting up 11:20 setting up the employer to have realistic expectations of what my skill 11:23 set actually is, 11:24 >> right? Yeah. Super important. uh like understanding because AI will make 11:30 everybody sound perfect 11:32 >> and that's the challenge as soon as you get on those initial conversations. So, 11:36 um, what about thoughts around screening and like initial cuz a number of the 11:42 companies we work with do have a have a process. I always like to have a 11:46 20-minut sanity check, right? That that's the and it is either with me or a 11:50 very senior part of the organization because, you know, if that person needs 11:55 to be a they can't be fooled, they'll and they'll ask the right questions. Um, 11:59 and there's that quick sanity check there of um, you know, is the person 12:03 actually right? Are they do they work in the platforms that we work in? Can they 12:07 tell us how to do certain things? Because that will expose somebody right 12:10 away. Is there something that companies can use, you know, quickly to kind of 12:15 work through some of this overload that you're talking about? 12:19 >> What I'm seeing people use is I'm seeing them add specific questions in addition 12:24 to uploading the resume and beyond the general, hey, what are your skills and 12:28 licenses and certifications? They're asking some of those screening questions 12:32 right up front. and you know whether it's a short answer or um some other 12:36 format that allows them to respond and sometimes it's even a video opportunity 12:40 right to present yourself to them um via video recording yourself answering the 12:45 questions that's another faster way to screen it because to your point I mean 12:49 we used to use one you don't you know what a pivot table is right and you know 12:53 very quickly whether somebody knows the answer to that even if I don't 12:56 understand what they're synthesizing I understand whether they know what a 13:00 pivot table is or if they're intimidated ated by through the table. That can also 13:04 be very interesting response. But yeah, I think you have to start even though 13:07 it's an extra step, it'll save you time in the long run if you start adding some 13:11 customized questions that really do get at exactly that. What it's not just have 13:15 you used a payball system, it's have you used and name your specific software. 13:20 >> Gotcha. Excellent. And responsiveness is is key, right, in that whole pro process 13:26 on both sides. 13:27 >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, and that's I think the other big frustration, right? 13:31 Is is it goes out into the void, whether you're the owner who sends out the 13:35 invitation for an interview and then never hear anything again, right? 13:38 Because you think you've come up with this perfect system. Here's a scheduling 13:41 link. Just go in and schedule yourself for the interview and then they never 13:44 respond. Um, and flip that to I apply for your job and I never hear from 13:49 anybody except for the automated, you know, we might get back to you if I even 13:53 get that. Right? So it's that's the other piece is investing in whether even 13:57 if you set up an automated system for responding to applicants ha or sending 14:03 out interview links. You've got to have some kind of follow-up system so that if 14:07 you haven't heard from them in 24 hours or if you haven't heard, you know, you 14:10 pick up the phone or you send the email saying, "Hey, I sent you a link. Are you 14:13 still interested?" Because they want to know that it's not just a recruiter bot 14:17 trying to get all of their information, right? And then they're not actually, 14:21 you know, they're not even 100% sure they're getting through to the employer, 14:24 period. That, you know, maybe this person's just going to start spamming me 14:28 with all of this stuff. And how do I know this is real? And if you're in a 14:31 certain generation, right, you're afraid to hit any links anymore because, you 14:35 know, fear that it's going to do something to your computer. 14:38 >> Right. Right. Right. I mean, that begs and perhaps Ryan as the owner, it begs 14:42 the question about how to attract people and and advertising, right? And the 14:47 challenges around that. other thoughts as the owner of how to 14:52 how to actually bring the people and the responsibility for it? 14:57 >> Well, I think owners want to know what they're doing wrong in their process, 15:01 right? And what's going on with that? And typically what we hear is, you know, 15:05 they run an ad for a couple weeks, they get a handful of applicants, two of them 15:10 know a show for the interview. You know what's wrong with that process? What's 15:15 wrong with their process? why can't they get good applicants, especially ones 15:20 that want to show um you know, and I think that's something that we need to a 15:24 little bit dissect is how can they reach these folks besides, 15:29 you know, let's talk about um small town electrical contractor, you know, in New 15:35 Hampshire or something to that effect where how can they get people who to get 15:40 in front of the right people, right? Because what worked 15 years ago isn't 15:45 going to work now. So what how do we adapt? 15:50 >> Yeah. And it's a it's a hard one, right? Because some ways the small town is 15:54 better from a reputational point of view, right? You're not going to stand 15:57 up the local, you know, business owner because everybody in town would know you 16:01 stood them up, right? But at the same time, because of the internet, you've 16:05 got applicants from far beyond that small group now where you would have 16:09 only gotten the people who saw the local newspaper ad. now literally 16:13 internationally your ad could be found even if you didn't set that as your 16:17 audience. So part of it I think is goes back to that screening process that 16:22 before you even offer the interview what I found some people are even doing is 16:25 quick screening interviews because the other place I see it fall apart is you 16:30 know when they start to hear more about the benefits and salary ranges right 16:33 because you know we're going through this process of transparency where some 16:36 states are or the local governments are requiring that you post the salary scale 16:42 or the range before you even have that first conversation. um there's no 16:48 context to that range in terms of the total compensation and value of that 16:52 total package as an employee. Um so it's going to again comes down to that word 16:57 of mouth. Um but yeah, it's it's it's almost 17:01 it goes back to kind of like I talked about before with how cell phones have 17:05 changed how people interact with each other. There was a time when what you 17:09 always immediately after an interview sent a thank you note and then it became 17:12 a thank you email and now you sometimes don't even see that and vice versa from 17:17 the employer you automatically got a hey thank you for coming in today we hope to 17:20 get back to you within two weeks whatever method that was whether it was 17:23 verbally at the meeting or you know via a separate communication of some sort. 17:28 So there's this loss of and integrity may not be the right word, but there's 17:33 this disconnect about just general politeness and general follow-through 17:37 that I'm not sure how we get back to that, right? And how we're all engaging 17:42 with each other in a society, right? So we all would have said, I'm guessing 17:46 that was just rude. If you told somebody you're going to come for an interview, 17:50 you at least pick up the phone and say, hey, I've changed my mind. But I think 17:53 there's also a little bit of fear. people are afraid of letting people 17:58 down. So rather than than um calling to say, "Hey, I'm not coming." They're just 18:03 ghosting, right? Because that's the other thing that's sort of become 18:05 acceptable, right? Is well, if you just stop contact, you know, they get the 18:09 message anyway. So it's it kind of goes back to, you know, the opening here of, 18:14 you know, how do we work with multiple styles, multiple generations, multiple 18:19 sets of cultural norms and expectations that no longer are are set like they 18:24 once may may have been. Um, so it's a challenge, but it's also one of those 18:29 things. The other piece way to do it is to make sure that you send out that 18:32 email or make the phone call that says, "Hey, just confirming that you're coming 18:36 for the four o'clock tomorrow. have nothing's changed since the last time we 18:40 spoke to you. Um, part of it depends on how quickly your interview process is 18:44 going. So, where I've traditionally worked in education, they were masters 18:49 at making a process last longer than anyone would ever imagine it needs to 18:52 last because you have to have committees and everybody wants to have be heard. 18:57 Whereas the local guy or gal who's working their own shop who just wants a 19:02 qualified electrician to come through the door, right? It may be that they 19:05 just got the ad on their website all the time that says, "Hey, if you've got 19:09 these credentials, we'd love to talk to you." So, some it may also be just 19:14 evolving to saying, "Hey, throw in your thing. Don't wait for a formal opening. 19:18 If you're out there looking and you've heard good things about our company, 19:21 send us your resume." Because sometimes that's the other way you can 19:25 >> keep your process open year round without narrowing it into this one week, 19:30 two week time frame. Um and it also gets you away from the dayong meanings of 19:34 interviews and things like that. It obviously depends on the level of 19:36 position, how much um background checking and all of those pieces that go 19:41 into it and the industry you're in and what you have to do to you know check 19:45 backgrounds just from a legal require legal requirements or in terms of 19:49 certifications and things like that. 19:51 >> Love it. Yeah, that that's some sage advice there. Right. I think we've got a 19:56 number of clients where their marketing, their actual marketing 20:00 um of their business is gravitating towards the level of their employees. 20:06 They, you know, what how they treat their employees, how they educate their 20:09 employees and team members, and it kind of reflects the culture. And yeah, it's 20:14 crazy how many companies use that as an actual tactic for the front end of 20:20 winning business as well as winning good people. And like it it's a great idea 20:25 especially for smaller businesses where you know what one thing comes along and 20:29 you need to hire right away. And so if you have a bank of good people that 20:32 you've had conversations with then you can pull from it immediately as opposed 20:35 to saying oh shoot let's start the hiring process right now and knowing 20:40 that you've got 3 months before you're probably going to get somebody in the 20:44 door and then you're keeping your fingers crossed you got the right person 20:47 in the door. So um I think that's really sage advice. 20:51 I think the other way when I was working at an auditing firm, the other thing to 20:56 keep in mind too is don't, you know, discount reaching out to the tech 20:59 schools, the high schools, the colleges, building those internships, 21:03 apprenticeships, whatever it is. Even if it's only 6, 8, 12 weeks, you know, 21:08 you've started to build that relationship. I mean, we had one with a 21:12 sophomore absent, you know, and as far as I know, he's come back every summer 21:16 since. Um, so you know, I think he's got one more year to go. So we'll see if he 21:20 actually ends up joining the team. But you know, you build those relationships, 21:23 they get a taste for we had another situation where another intern joined us 21:27 and found out, no, no, this is not the direction I want to go. And that was 21:31 great because it didn't waste our time or theirs. So 21:35 >> awesome. Awesome. That is great. Um, what a great segment. Geez, we're only 21:39 just getting started, but that was that was so much great advice there. So, um 21:43 I'm looking forward to the next section where we're going to dig in, uh a little 21:47 bit more on why people don't actually want to work for specific organizations 21:51 and kind of the reasons, but we'll do Ryan's fun fact. All right, fun fact 21:57 straight from Gallup's 2026 workplace data. The decline engagement is being 22:02 driven by managers, not frontline staff, and it's not even close. The people in 22:09 the middle are the ones burning out fastest. 22:12 Wow. So, the layer we're leaning on the hardest is actually the one that's 22:16 cracking. 22:17 >> And an owner who ignores manager burnout is sanding the floor while the 22:22 foundation shifts. Cindy's been saying this louder than almost anyone. 22:26 >> That wasn't such a fun fact, was it? That wasn't really that much fun. It was 22:30 interesting. 22:32 >> It makes you think. 22:34 >> That's right. 22:36 >> All right. So, time for a quick break. And it's a fun and awkward one because 22:40 today's sponsor is CKW Advantage, which is Cindy's firm. And she's sitting right 22:44 here listening, 22:45 >> which means she has to sit quietly while we describe her own company. And I 22:49 intend to enjoy it. 22:51 >> Yes, indeed. CKW Advantage is outsourced HR and strategy for businesses that are 22:56 too big to wing it and too small for a full HR department. Their tagline is 23:00 where strategy meets execution. And that's the gap most owners fall into. 23:05 outsourced HR director, compliance, classification, the handbook, labor 23:11 relations, even outsourced technology leadership, the stuff that quietly 23:16 becomes a lawsuit when nobody owns it. 23:19 >> Mhm. That's the deal. CKW Advantage, ckwadvantage.com, 23:23 where HR strategy meets execution. And where apparently the owner narrates her 23:28 own ad read in silence. I feel like a puppet. I feel like I've 23:33 got somebody's arm up my back. 23:37 >> How do we do 23:38 >> strings? You danced well, monkeys. You danced well. 23:42 >> Oh, good. Cuz we're going to murder the next one. 23:44 >> Yeah. 23:47 >> I'm going to use my symbols. Next one. All right. Okay. So, let's stop talking 23:51 around it. Let's let's dig in now. So, if I'm the owner and I've got open rolls 23:54 and I want the actual list um the specific things that um makes a great 23:59 tradesman take um this job, Ryan, what is it? Start uh start with um the items 24:05 that really uh are most critical. So, what makes the tradesman take the other 24:10 Jon uh other job is um a couple things. One is the job changes at 6:45 in the 24:16 morning, right? Schedule goes out on Friday but gets blown up on Monday 24:20 morning. The owner calls that being flexible. The crew calls it, you know, 24:25 not being able to plan a life. Nobody quits over one Monday. They quit over 24:29 the ninth one. The other thing is the rate, right? The rate is fine. The check 24:35 is not. And this is how it comes along. We have somebody at $20 an hour. If 24:41 they're at an hourly rate and there's seasonality, there's they're working 24:45 outside, there's rain, there's snow, all that kind of stuff, the worst week could 24:50 be almost half the paycheck of an average regular one during the 24:54 summertime, right? That's huge. That's a 50% swing. Did the person's rent swing? 25:01 No. Did the truck payment swing? No. When they go to a mortgage lender, can 25:07 they actually get a mortgage? because they have to now need 2 years of back 25:11 income to get a mortgage. So, the problem is is that they didn't sign up 25:16 for and change the job. The job changed on them. 25:21 >> Cindy, that really puts the onus on predictability, right, in terms of 25:25 earnings and the stability of that role. Um, what are your thoughts with that? 25:31 >> So, let's start with the seasonality piece and the predictability um in terms 25:36 of work hours, right? So you hear two complaints there um from the workforce 25:40 generally. So one exactly what you just hit on. I need to know I'm going to get 25:44 at least X hours per per week, per month, whatever your pay cycle is in 25:50 order to meet my basic needs. I'm already living check to check. So first 25:55 thing is being upfront, you know, during the process is, hey, this is how this 25:59 goes. you know, the nature of our seasons, the way things work here, you 26:05 know, this is how we have to, you know, this is how it goes because we can only 26:08 pay for the hours work because you're not a salary employee, etc., etc. 26:12 Secondarily, but probably more important would be is is there a way to have a 26:18 backup plan? You know, where you're still able to guarantee the hours and 26:23 have them produce work that the company needs produced even if it's not a, you 26:29 know, the perfect day to be outside or, you know, the noraster comes through and 26:33 that nobody was expecting in April. you know, what are the backup things that 26:37 just don't ever get done that you could have everybody come on site to do 26:41 inventory or whatever those things may be or can you turn it into a training 26:46 day? Can you, you know, how do you utilize those sources to try and 26:49 equalize the pay across the system as much as you can? Um, and that's 26:55 obviously also going to come down to your budget in terms of how you you're 26:58 bidding projects, how you're working in that quote unquote overhead cost for 27:02 providing that kind of stability for your employees. But there's you those 27:06 are things you have to start thinking about outside the box is, you know, are 27:09 there ways to provide 30 hours a week for everybody no matter what the 27:13 schedule is or not? And if there's not, you've got to be upfront with that for 27:17 people. Um, do you have it within your organization to guarantee minimums? You 27:22 know, so no matter how many hours you do or don't work this week, we're going to 27:26 pay you at least 24 hours. So, you can't bank on the 30, but you can bank on the 27:31 24. And then show them, you know, somebody, not a specific employee, that 27:36 you know, an employee who's been employed for you for 52 weeks. And, hey, 27:40 this is where it averages out. I get the es and flow and it sucks in this time of 27:45 year more than this time of year, but just know you're going to average, but 27:49 yeah, it doesn't solve their immediate pro problem. Um, and then there's, you 27:53 know, honesty about the profession you've chosen, right? You know, we used 27:56 to want this with with school year positions is, you know, you can't expect 28:02 190 day work year um as an hourly employee to work the same as a 260day 28:08 work year. you're either not going to get paid in the summer or you're only 28:12 going to get paid when you work as a unless and this obviously doesn't apply 28:16 necessarily to salaried employees but you know that's just part of the nature 28:19 of the beast and people need to understand that and then you know in 28:23 that case we also supplemented it with hey but we have summer school or we have 28:26 these other options so again it's you know can you build in some fail safes 28:32 for your employees that actually will help you or your clients long term um 28:37 you know that's why you see landscape ers who also plow snow, right? You see, 28:41 you know, these dual approaches to how to what work can we do during this 28:45 season to offset those low times. So, that would be, you know, the first place 28:50 I attack it. 28:52 >> Yeah. Stability, right? That that's it's essential. It it's key as people are 28:56 making these decisions about where they're going to land. Um, yeah, that's 29:00 um yeah, obviously a critical ele element of it. Uh, awesome. What again, 29:05 what a great segment. Thank you so much for all your expertise. 29:09 >> That's it for this episode of From Burnt Out to Bought Out. If something we 29:13 said today hit home, don't just nod in agreement. Pick one thing, the number 29:17 you've been avoiding, the process that only lives in your head, the 29:21 conversation you've been putting off for 6 months. Do that one thing this week. 29:26 That's how it starts. And if you're not sure which one thing to pick, drop us a 29:30 line. We'll happily point you in the right direction. New episodes drop every 29:34 week. Until next time, stop running the treadmill and start building something 29:39 you can actually sell.